“Clarity is Kindness” — The Right Way to Give Feedback

Brought to you by expert maid service owners

Tips and advice shared here, have helped us grow our own maid services. With eight current and former cleaning business owners in our team, including our CEO and founder Amar, we know the maid service industry inside and out.

We partner with amazing leaders in the cleaning industry like Debbie Sardone, Angela Brown, Courtney Wisely and Chris Schwab and more, to provide you with the latest industry insights.

We’ve built the easiest-to-use scheduling software, built specifically for maid service owners! Check out ZenMaid

Listen on: Apple Podcasts, Spotify or YouTube

Introduction

Hello everyone, welcome or welcome back to the Filthy Rich Cleaners podcast. I am your host Stephanie from Serene Clean and today’s guest is an absolute expert on establishing an incredible company culture and I’m so excited for you guys to meet Mr. Mike Robbins. I have been devouring your books the past week. Mike, Stephanie Diaz from Zen Maid introduced me to your content and I really appreciate you taking the time to speak to our audience today.

What is Psychological Safety?

Stephanie: So Mike, as I told you, our audience is made up of cleaning business owners. So very small business owners who are just oftentimes stepping into establishing a team and going through a lot of turmoil in the process, a lot of development themselves. And your content focuses so much on the importance of company culture from many aspects. I’d love to start with the concept of emotional safety and what does that mean and why is it important in the workplace and on our teams to begin with?

Mike: Well, think of psychological safety as group trust, whereas trust is kind of a one-to-one phenomenon, right? So you and I could trust each other or not. Trust can be built, it can be broken, but psychological safety is more a sense that the group, the team is safe for risk-taking, speaking up, disagreeing, even failing, not that we want to, but when you create that sense of psychological or emotional safety within a team, people know that they’re not going to be shamed or ridiculed or kicked out of the group simply because they made a mistake or they have a different opinion or something doesn’t go quite the way that we want it to.

And it’s not easy to establish, it’s also not easy to maintain. And whether we’re talking about leaders and teams in big Fortune 100 companies or small business owners. And especially when I work with a lot of small business owners and entrepreneurs, and particularly when they’re newly starting their companies, building that sense of trust with the individuals. And then ultimately the psychological safety with the team is super important, but it can be challenging.

Overcoming Cynicism in High-Turnover Industries

Stephanie: Absolutely. And I can attest to that fully, especially in the beginning for me, very hard high turnover is kind of a pillar of this industry in the cleaning industry. And so that’s something that I particularly struggled with in the beginning. I started my business when I was 22 years old. I’m hiring folks and it was just nonstop in the door, out the door. And I remember feeling that cynicism kind of creeping in of, people don’t work out or anything. The battle within of not being vulnerable and trusting because you’re going through the same problems over and over was definitely a challenge for sure. Do you have any suggestions considering we do have a lot of people coming in and even, we’re hoping for the best but kind of expecting the worst oftentimes, because we’re so used to this high turnover. From a mindset perspective, do you have any suggestions for us on how to maintain that, keep going attitude with being vulnerable, especially being safe, that type of stuff?

Mike: I do think it’s important to acknowledge, if there is high turnover in your industry, which there is, that’s an important thing to understand. And there’s a way you can go about it where you’re negative and cynical about it and people are going to quit and they’re going to do it. And when you have a bad experience with someone or someone does something weird, they don’t show up on you or you think, hey, I found someone great. And then they let you down or worse things happen. People steal money or lie or what, stuff happens, right, in life. So you want to be mindful. You want to be aware, eyes wide open, not naive about it.

And at the same time, I think there’s a way to sort of understand that that’s just part of the deal. Again, just imagine you live in an area where there’s a lot of traffic, or there’s a lot of rain or something. It’s like, you could waste a lot of time and energy complaining about it or just going, okay, that’s part of the deal.

And in an industry or a business you run and a lot of people listening to us or watching us run, understanding that that’s part of it is essential so that you’re not blindsided by it and upset all the time. And at the same time, you also then can challenge yourself, okay, what can I do differently? Or as I hire new people and talk to them and say, look, this is a business where people tend to turn over a lot. We don’t want that to be the case with our business and with our team. And so we try to do a really good job hiring people and taking good care of people while they’re here so that they want to stay, but it’s a two-way street. So what do you need? What can I do? And here’s what I expect from you. So I think just having those conversations as proactively as possible right from the beginning, it’s not going to mean people aren’t going to leave, but it’s going to mitigate that happening more often than not. And I think if you have the mindset of understanding, look, that’s sort of part of the deal here. But let’s see what we can do to make it so it doesn’t just disrupt the business all the time.

The Three Stages of Receiving Feedback

Stephanie: That was one of my topics I wanted to explore with you is oftentimes we’re bringing people in and they’re training and your content focuses a lot of providing feedback. But I really liked the one example you gave in “We’re All in This Together” of how we all respond to feedback oftentimes is a three-step thing of “F you” and then, “I suck” and then, “wait, what was that about?” So knowing that we have to provide feedback a lot in that first two week period, how do we even begin to establish emotional safety so that they’re open to the feedback and don’t get stuck in one or two?

Mike: Well, and just for people listening or watching, I heard actually it was an actor on a podcast, talk about how he takes feedback and his response when a director gives him feedback was that he has those beats go off in his head. The first one is, “F you.” The second one is “I suck.” And the third one is, “wait, what?” And he said, if I can get to the wait, what, if I can get curious about what they’re saying, it doesn’t mean I’m always going to take the feedback or necessarily the feedback, but that can help me be a better actor. And as I was listening to that, Stephanie, I was thinking to myself, well, first of all, I don’t act. So I don’t know what that’s, but I could imagine it’s pretty vulnerable to be an actor getting feedback from a director on a set with a whole crew and people there. But I laughed because I thought that’s how I take feedback. And the defensive, the “F you” sort of response that most of us have, that’s the defensive response. The, “I suck” one is more of the self critical and both of those, while totally normal and understandable, they’re just not helpful for us in terms of receiving feedback. They’re also not helpful if you’re giving me feedback, Stephanie, and I get either defensive with you or I walk away going, Stephanie hates me and I’m terrible. I’ll never be good at this. Then I’m not empowered. But that third step, that “wait what” is what I call growth mindset is that openness, that curiosity.

And as someone giving feedback to another human, you can’t mitigate completely against them getting defensive or self-critical, but you can talk about it and say, look, feedback’s uncomfortable, feedback’s hard to both give and receive. You can even say, look, I’m not always the best at receiving feedback myself. I can sometimes get defensive or self-critical. It’s just going to be necessary, especially at the beginning and throughout our relationship for me to give you some feedback. Even talk to them about it. What’s the best way for me to do that? Or is it okay that I do that? Or especially in the first couple of weeks, there’s going to be a lot of training and coaching and me or other people on the team telling you what to do or correcting you, and just sort of setting the table for that. Because I think, again, most of us, whether it’s in school or in sports or in other activities, it’s not we’ve never gotten feedback before, but can we be coachable ourselves? And then can we encourage other people to be coachable, but make sure that we’re doing it in a way that is mindful and respectful. And we don’t always have to be quote nice, but I love the saying that clarity is kindness. So not correcting someone when they make a mistake, because we don’t want to upset them or offend them or hurt their feelings actually is unkind because then they’re going to make the same mistake and keep making the same mistake. And eventually when we tell them after the 15th time and two weeks in, then they’re, “oh my gosh, I’ve been doing that the whole time. Why didn’t you say anything?”

The Power of Vulnerability in Leadership

Stephanie: And I also just the whole concept. And this is something that we do is we kind of establish the vulnerability of saying, we always give examples from the leadership team or whoever’s training, hey, this is the complaints that I’ve gotten. This is where I’ve messed up and really being that’s one of my favorite. Some of my favorite stories to tell honestly are this is where I royally, I broke this in a client’s house. I did this, I did this. And that really seems to totally disengage that defensiveness of okay, this is okay. We all mess up.

Mike: Right, right. Yeah, you normalize it. I was speaking at an HR conference a few weeks ago in Denver and Adam Grant was one of the other speakers and he’s a professor at Wharton and he writes and speaks a lot about performance and feedback and all these things. And one of the things he said that he did, because he’s big about feedback and then he got the other professors. This is Wharton Business School. These are really smart people. But what he said was he had himself, he started doing this and then with his other professors, they would make a video at the beginning of every semester and they would read some of the worst feedback that they got from their students about how boring they were, terrible professor, whatever. And it was, and then the students now it became a thing where they really got to it because the idea was we wanted to sort of take ourselves down a few notches so we could be a little more relatable to the students, but also remind them we actually do want their feedback. We don’t necessarily want them to criticize us, but.

And what he was saying, he was using this as an example to the people at the conference, a lot of times in leadership, if you can share some critical feedback you’ve gotten or something you’re working on or a mistake that you’ve made to your point, not as a manipulation, but just as a level set and kind of a normalization, hey, we all make mistakes. Here’s where I screwed up in the past or even more recently. Let’s talk about the mistakes and look at them as learning opportunities as opposed to people hiding and hoping that nobody notices.

Balancing Vulnerability with Leadership Boundaries

Stephanie: Absolutely. I love that. And just focusing on leveling the playing field and not thinking that you’re better than your staff or anything. And especially in the beginning, we’re oftentimes cleaning alongside of our employees. And so I absolutely struggled with oversharing or also seeing them as more of a coworker than their leader. Do you have any tips for that fine line? I feel that’s one of our strengths in Serene Clean is very vulnerable. It’s very open and we all share. But then I noticed as time has gone on, we’ve actually had to set some boundaries of why are our staff trauma dumping on us? Why are they just unleashing all of this? And then it became overwhelming to my managers to basically emotionally care for them in that. So how do we balance all of this?

Mike: It’s tricky, right? I mean, look, especially the business that you’re in and the industry, it’s very personal. You’re in people’s homes, the nature of it. I mean, it’s not a stuffy corporate job, but even in that environment, again, I’ve been doing this for so many years and even in more sort of traditional workplaces these days, because of how the world has changed, because of the way that we dress and talk and connect and people are on zoom and, it’s different than it was.

That said, years ago, when I first started in my business 25 years ago, I was constantly challenging leaders and managers and people to hey, we got to be more human, we got to be more personal, we got to share a little bit more. The pendulum has swung so far that in some situations we find ourselves now, we live in this world of TikTok and Instagram and everybody’s oversharing everything. And then I’m, okay, wait, this is work, this isn’t therapy. We have to have some boundary and parameter. And then the other thing that I think about if you’re a leader or an owner or you’ve built a business where it’s not just you by yourself or you with a couple other people. Another analogy that I use is on the airplane, right? There’s conversations that happen in the cockpit and then there’s conversations that happen on the loud speaker. And I want information when I’m sitting on an airplane, I want to know, hey, sorry, we’re running late or we’re going to hit some turbulence or hey, sorry, this happened or we’ll get there soon or thank you, whatever. I don’t need to know everything. I don’t want the pilot to come on and go, oh my gosh, I’m having a really bad day and my wife and I got in a fight and actually this is only my second flight ever. I’m feeling kind of nervous. I’m, no, thank you. I don’t need that information. That’s freaking me out, right? But I’m hoping if that’s true to some degree, I hope there’s, they feel safe enough with each other that they can talk openly that way in the cockpit and then share appropriately with me on the plane what’s going on. And I think sometimes you think of leadership without it being this weird hierarchical thing. You have to remember, I’m somebody’s boss or manager.

And so sometimes there might be certain things that I choose not to share, not to be phony, but maybe I would share that with a peer or again, in the case of someone who runs a business, maybe I share that with another business owner or someone or a friend or mentor outside of work because I want to keep my relationship. Yeah, I want it to be personal and vulnerable and human, but I also want it to be professional. And so sometimes we have to let someone go or give someone some feedback. And they’re, “wait a minute, we were just talking about life and our lives and you, just went drinking and now you’re firing me.” And you’re, “sorry about that.” So again, it’s tricky, but I think we all have to navigate through that as best we can.

The Importance of Sweaty Palm Conversations

Stephanie: And I love your discussions on the whole sweaty palm conversations. And that is absolutely where I messed up so many times because what I did was exactly what you just described of I want to be buddies with my staff. I want this to be a workplace they’ve never had before. And it’s amazing and very lenient in a lot of ways. And then when I did have to, bring the hammer down or discipline or whatever, it was absolutely so jarring to them of wait, what? You just, so, yeah, it’s just very challenging.

Mike: It is. Yeah, I mean, you referenced it, but there’s something that I often talk about. Years ago, a mentor of mine said to me, you know, Mike, what stands between you and the kind of relationships you really want to have with people. And I said, what’s that? He said, it’s usually a 10 minute sweaty palm conversation you’re too afraid to have. And I was, he’s, yeah, if you get good at those 10 minutes, sweaty palm conversations, you’ll have fantastic relationships. You’ll build trust, you’ll resolve conflicts, you’ll give and get feedback. You’ll get to know people who are different than you. You’ll talk about uncomfortable topics or the elephant in the room or what he’s, he said, but if you avoid those conversations, cause you know, they can be awkward and messy. Sometimes not only they take longer than 10 minutes, but they can get worse before they get better. He’s, then you end up sort of being a victim of who you work with and who you live with. And he said, but if you know, if you lean into those and have them sooner rather than later, it’ll benefit you and all your relationships. And look, he was right. And those are still hard conversations for me and most humans I know to have.

But I do think if we can talk about the things that are hard to talk about or address some of that. And again, in the case that we’re talking about, so a lot of people listening to us, watching us probably have small businesses, they want to have those personal relationships. They want to create environments where, hey, I want this to be a great place for people to work. I want people to stay. I want people to feel they’re valued and they’re seen and all that. And then sometimes it gets awkward or uncomfortable because, we have this personal relationship and now we have to have that harder sort of professional conversation. And in your case, I can imagine too, it’s when you start a business as young as you were at the time and you’re still young, right? It’s sometimes I have people older than me and in different stages of life and phases of life. And that gets weird too. By the way, on the flip side, as you get older and then you’re dealing with people a lot younger than you, you’re, I remember being that age, but now I do that. Well, when I was your age and you sound an old, you’re, wait a minute.

So again, for a whole bunch of reasons, if someone could have a different background, a different race, a different gender, a different social, all kinds of things, it can get awkward for a bunch of different reasons. So again, learning how to be comfortable with the discomfort is a really important part of leading and managing people, but also creating healthy environments.

Understanding Diversity Beyond Race

Stephanie: And you just kind of touched on the whole topic of the diversity. And oftentimes, when we think about diversity, we’re thinking it’s only race. But what you’ve just described is what I have experienced when it comes to generational diversity. That has been the most common form and or socioeconomical of I’ve really, yeah, came full bore into foot and mouth a lot of times because what I am saying is being interpreted through a different experience and lens and they’re hearing it completely differently than what or vice versa because of my own experiences. And you focused really heavily on that in “We’re All in This Together.” And I really appreciated that angle. And from your own background, sharing some of your life experiences of being in very diverse places, that was really interesting to me.

Mike: Yeah, I mean, you know, I’m a 51 year old straight white dude who grew up in California in the Bay Area in Oakland, where I live close to there now still. My experience, interestingly enough, Stephanie, which I read a little bit about in the book is that I was this white kid raised by a single mom growing up around a lot of kids, black and Latino and Asian and from different. Weirdly, I mean, now I understand more historical context of I’m, you know, dominant gender dominant race in America all of that but at that time in those formative years I wasn’t I was often the only white kid on the team and I, you know, so I say all of that because it did give me an interesting perspective for what it’s worth at that young age as I moved along in life and then not that I know what it’s to be female or gay or a person of color anything but I do know a little bit of from a lived experience of what it’s when you’re not in the majority or you’re not and now as being someone who understands that sort of out in the world. I don’t pretend to understand other people’s experience, but I do think it’s important for all of us to be aware of our own experience and have some awareness if we can of our own blind spots and our own biases.

Sometimes when I talk to younger people, it’s funny, I just got a text earlier today from a woman that I know, she’s a client, but it turns out we grew up in the same town. She’s about 15 years younger than me, but she just had her first baby. And then she just went back to work. And so I was just checking, we’ve become friends checking, how’s it going? And she’s, it’s a trip being back at work. But she said, I have so much more understanding and empathy for working moms now that I never could have had before this because I didn’t have kids. She’s, I could think about it intellectually, but now I’m, oh my gosh. And she’s someone who’s been pretty successful in a career. She’s been managing people, people older than her, people who have kids. And she’s, oops, I know something now that I didn’t know. And again, how could you know until you know? But that’s an example of just, you know, as we get older, it’s not that we necessarily, there are certain things that we can’t relate to, but there’s other things that we have. We have certain perspective and wisdom that we didn’t have when we were younger and we can’t account for that. But then as we look at the workforce these days, it’s baby boomers are different than Gen Xers are different than millennials are different than people in Generation Z. So how do we all figure out how to understand one another and leverage each other’s strengths instead of just thinking we’re all a bunch of aliens who can’t relate to one another.

The “If You Really Knew Me” Exercise

Stephanie: Well, and I really how you explained how the whole, you really knew me exercise can help establish that we do have a ton of similarities under the surface. When we, when we dig down to it of yes, you and I are talking right now about diversity and wildly different life experiences. But once we start sharing with vulnerability, or even I think you give an example of sharing where we’ve felt othered because we all have had that experience and that can actually really level the playing field of I’ve been through that too, even though you and I grew up completely differently.

Mike: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that the feeling of not belonging is a human experience and the desire to belong. If you look at Maslow’s hierarchy, we all have the desire to belong and we’ve all had an experience in life where we felt we didn’t belong. And maybe it was related to our race or our gender or our age or our fill in the blank, but it could just be, look, I mean, it’s, wasn’t, they’re the cool kids in school and I wasn’t part of that group or whatever. And that happens.

I mean, I find myself in so many different situations and I’ll sometimes laugh because I’m, now I’m feeling the odd person out here. I don’t know why, but all of a sudden, I don’t know. It could be about a bunch of things. So again, I think the exercise that you referenced, if you really knew me exercise that I love to do with groups is basically this idea that, you know, if you think of the overused metaphor of the iceberg, it’s, can we lower the water line on the iceberg a bit and be a bit more vulnerable? And what I’ll often do with groups and sometimes it’s a very small group. Sometimes if it’s a bigger group, I put people in into small groups. I could even sometimes do this virtually, although it’s usually better if we do it in person. But in general, it’s, I usually start and talk about how vulnerability is scary and it’s risky and it’s uncomfortable, but it’s also liberating and really important for us to build trust and connection. And then what we do is, and I always go first as I say, look, we’re going to do an exercise.

You don’t have to say anything you don’t want to say, but I’m going to invite you. I’m going to encourage you. In fact, I’m going to challenge you to lower the water line on your iceberg and I’ll go first as a way to model it. And then we’ll go around and everybody in the group will have a chance to talk and you’ll, you know, a minute or two each, but just repeat the phrase. If you really knew me, you’d know this about me. And again, you can say whatever you want. And it’s, it’s more about if we really knew you in the moment, what do you think and how are you feeling and what tends to happen to make it as safe as possible? I usually say, look, let’s not talk when anyone else is talking. So one person at a time will go around at the end, we can kind of debrief. And the second thing is let’s keep what everybody says in this conversation, confidential to ourselves. So we’re not going and sharing it. Cause that’s a big part of it. If I share something in confidence with you and you share it with someone else, it’s not my God, my life is ruined. But now it becomes, instead of it being a connecting trust building thing, it now becomes a trust violating thing where it’s, I told Stephanie this thing and then she told someone else.

Or if you tell me, sometimes the person doesn’t even find out. But if I go tell someone something that you shared in confidence with me to someone else on the team or in our community, it might not even get back to you. But that person is now going to know, hey, Mike’s not safe because he might share it. So back to the exercise, then everybody kind of goes around. And usually what happens, Stephanie, in that conversation is even, especially if the group is really diverse, but even if everyone kind of looks the same and is around the same age, what we find out is oh my gosh. People have a lot of stuff going on down below the waterline and there’s so much common ground for us as humans, even if on the surface we’re very different. It’s, you feel joy and pain and excitement and sadness and fear and gratitude. Yeah, me too. We’re not as dissimilar as we might think we are.

Creating Connection in Independent Work Environments

Stephanie: And one of the things that I think is very specifically a challenge to our industry, although it’s probably becoming more so because so many workplaces are completely virtual, though obviously, in most cleaning businesses, we have the owner, perhaps a small level of management or a lead cleaner, a lead in the field, and then we have a bunch of cleaning technicians, that’s what I call them in my business. And so what happens is it’s a highly independent type of job. We are all, cleaning techs are all out in the field. Very rarely are they interacting outside of perhaps a little bit in passing with their management. A lot of this is over text, over phone, because you’re out at job sites basically. And so one of the things I was curious about, I really wanted to ask you is establishing, you know, this vulnerability and this kind of rapport with your teammates when it is so independent. And perhaps, you know, one of the things that we’ve done for years now is having a weekly team meeting. And I’m such a big proponent of that because it allows us to have that connection time. And as I shared, I’m not even where my business is at all. So keeping that connection and that closeness, and I’d love to get some feedback on kind of our meeting agenda if you’d be willing to provide it.

Mike: Yeah, happy to. And you said, I think before we hit record, your team is about 30 people. I’m imagining people listening to us and watching us have different sized teams and maybe, yeah, and maybe it’s all residential. Maybe there might be some folks who do some cleaning in commercial or businesses. But I mean, look, I think each person who’s watching us, listening to us has to customize it for their own situation. How big is your team? How much interaction do you have in person versus not?

I do think that if we’re managing people virtually or if there’s people on multiple locations, job sites, we’re not there together. We have to be that much more intentional, right? How often are we connecting? What’s the cadence? What’s the platform that we’re using? And, ultimately what do you need people to know? But it’s also about hearing from the team what’s going on. And it’s about connecting, having everyone be able to connect with each other. So I often find that most meeting agendas have too much stuff on it that we’re trying to get communicated and accomplished. And we miss the opportunity to really just connect, to share, to listen, to learn. And I think again, it’s, it’s often I got to get all, you know, I have to tell them all these things or we only have as limited amount of time and we got to cram it all in. And then we forget and it’s hard if it’s 30 people in your case, in some cases, it might be much larger. In some cases, it might be much smaller. It’s hard to effectively connect with a group of that many people, especially if it’s done virtually, not that we can’t do it, but you have to start to get creative with how you go about it.

The Difference Between Recognition and Appreciation

Stephanie: And I love that you said creating that space for the sharing and connecting and creating a sense of belonging when it is also independence, well, belonging to what? It’s, especially when you’re new, it’s, there is nothing here, it almost can feel. And so for us, we do go through some key metrics, we share any positive feedback, we go over globally any complaints that we had, not calling anybody out and kind of problem solving, how we do it. And then yeah, the end of the meeting is literally, we have a question of the week and then we share something we’re grateful for and positive and everybody has time to do it and just talking about that. So it’s honestly, it’s to me, one of the biggest things that I’ve done for my culture because of how it is from a structural perspective. So it’s been very helpful. One thing that I thought about though, listening to the book was I definitely think we lean a lot more into sharing positive feedback, getting reviews, getting emails from clients, those types of things, and less so on just appreciation in general. And I that you said it’s on their work versus just appreciating them as a person. So can you give us some practical advice on that?

Mike: Absolutely. Well, and I think you alluded to it, but I think it’s just to distill it down for people listening and watching. It’s the distinction between recognition and appreciation, both important, but recognition is about performance. It’s about outcome. It’s about what we do. Appreciation is more about value. It’s about who we are. It’s about caring about people. And again, both are important. So if you’re listening or watching and you have a team and you really want to make sure that you’re giving them that positive feedback, you want to recognize them when they deserve it individually, collectively, but appreciate people all the time. So valuing people and caring about people. So some things to think about are just sometimes appreciating someone is listening to them. Sometimes it’s just acknowledging that something’s been hard. It’s looking at the human, it’s looking at the effort, it’s not looking at the outcome. Now this is not to say we want to turn into, if we separate it out, we can be have a really high standard for what we expect in terms of performance.

And we only acknowledge and recognize when people meet or exceed that. But then we also have a high level of caring and nurturing. So we’re caring about people a lot and we’re challenging them. So again, just checking in with people, just letting people know what you value about them, why you’re glad they’re on the team. Not in reaction to something that they’ve done or something that they said or some accomplishment, but just proactively letting them know that. I mean, another way to think about it, I mean, you talk about turnover, when someone leaves who we really want to stay, I got another job or, I’m moving or you’re, the things that you will want to say to them on the way out the door, you want to recognize them for their performance, but it’s really about the human. I’m going to miss you and this is what you’ve really brought to me in my life and to the business and to our customers or whatever.

That stuff, if you can think about that. I often say to managers of people, imagine everyone on your team, was their last day, what would you want to say to them? Without being melodramatic, it’s sprinkle some of those things in and just let them know? Because at some point, it is going to be their last day, right? And then recognition is being very, it can be informal, hey, good job, way to go. It can be more formal. But again, that’s something that has to be earned.

Setting High Standards While Caring for People

Mike: And I think we’ve lost sight of this in our society. And I often say, you if everybody gets a trophy, the trophy doesn’t mean anything. Right. And again, this is also a generational thing. People who are younger than I am were raised in a different mindset around some of that stuff with good intention. Cause I’m of the age and people older than me, especially there was a lot of shame and, you’re a loser, you’re a loser, you’re a loser. Here’s a trophy for the person who’s good. Everyone else sucks. And it was, well, that’s super hard when you’re seven years old. Right.

But then we swung the pendulum the other way. It’s everybody gets a trophy. We’re not going to keep score. We want everyone to feel good, good intention, just problematic. Cause that’s not actually the way the world works. Right. You don’t get, you don’t get participation trophies in life, right? You got to actually do something to earn whatever it is. And running a business, it’s, hey, if you’re not providing service, that’s valuable to people, they’ll stop paying you or they’ll go hire someone else. And it’s they might you and think you’re a wonderful person. But hey, my house isn’t getting cleaned or my business isn’t getting cleaned or it’s not on time or it didn’t happen when we needed it to or something weird. And it’s, okay, they’re not going to reward us with continued business or referrals to other people. Even if you’re a wonderful person and they really you.

Stephanie: And that’s what it is. And I oftentimes think of it when it comes to having those high expectations and I noted you had put somebody’s quote in that was basically the balance of caring, caring about them or something about listening with or behaving with your head versus your heart and that it’s a balance. It is so hard to not swing too far. And I think you said most people tend to be one or the other. And for me, I tend to be more of the caring, but then when I do need to provide negative feedback or say we get a complaint or something, it’s so challenging for me of how do I lovingly give you this type of thing? And I think it’s just saying things along the lines of I know that you can perform so well. I’ve seen it in the past and that’s kind of where this is coming from.

Mike: Yeah. Well, you know, something I heard it speaking of, talked about Adam Grant earlier. I heard him say something a while back too, a way to frame sort of kind of hard feedback or, I’m going to, I’m giving you this feedback because I expect a lot of you and I know you can handle it. And I know you can, you know, operate at a really high level, that sort of setting the bar with someone. And for those of us that maybe have a hard time when we give that feedback, you know, again, if you’re someone that errs on the side of the caring and nurturing is easy, the having high expectations or giving the feedback is a little more challenging. What that will usually set up an environment is that people feel great and it’s all warm and fuzzy, but they’re not going to necessarily perform at the highest level. And they’re not going to hold themselves accountable probably in the way that we would them to, or we’re not holding them accountable. And not usually because people are lazy and they don’t care. It’s just the environment that we’ve set up.

If we tend to be the other way, some people I talked to were, I’m really good at high bar, push, charge, feedback, but when it comes to caring and nurturing, I don’t do that as well or I don’t think of it or that’s not how I was raised or whatever. That will create an environment where people will often perform well, especially at first and they’ll be on edge or they’ll be accountable and, but they’re going to get stressed out and burned out over time and people will often leave because it’s, ooh, that was too intense.

We want to do both and it’s not that we have to lower our expectations if we have high expectations or lower the way we care and nurture people. No, just see if we can raise the other one up so that we balance it out.

The Authenticity Formula

Stephanie: That makes perfect sense. And thinking about the caring and nurturing side, you focus heavily on authenticity and you know, bringing your whole self to work. But then when it comes to I have gotten people in who have came from very bad workplaces, and they’ve gotten burned before. And it really puts their guard up, I find. And they oftentimes think that we are being fake, meaning that very positive energy and things, or it’s they’re waiting for the other shoe, you know, they’re scared to love again, basically. And so, do you have any suggestions on, is it just patience and consistency? And I guess, can you talk also about the whole authenticity formula as well? Because we haven’t really touched on that yet.

Mike: Well, look, a couple of things. I think first and foremost, we have to check ourselves, whether it’s positivity, whether it’s appreciation. Am I being real? Is this real? Because there is a phenomenon. And look, the first book I wrote years and years ago is called “Focus on the Good Stuff.” I believe in the power of appreciation and the power of positivity, but it’s got to be real. Because if it is BS, if we’re just doing it to be nice or to sound good or whatever, that actually ends up having the opposite effect. It’s, we call it toxic positivity, right? Which is weird, because you think of how something positivity be toxic. If it’s inauthentic, it can be. Now, sometimes we’re genuinely being positive, we’re genuinely wanting, and people are cynical about it, to your point. It’s, I got burned in the past, or that’s not what I’m used to, or, you know. So sometimes, again, it’s the sort of, I don’t know, you know, maybe it’s more of something for people in my generation, but I call it the Ted Lasso phenomenon. It’s if you watch Ted Lasso, and even if you didn’t, it’s he’s such a positive character in this show, people almost think it’s not real. They don’t take him seriously, they blow him off, and as the show goes on, you realize, no, this dude is genuinely positive, genuinely looks for the best in people. And so sometimes if you are a positive person and want to create a positive environment, you are going to deal with some blowback and some pushback and some negativity and cynicism from people who don’t think that it’s real. That said, when I talk about authenticity and the authenticity equation, right? I talk about authenticity being the foundation of authenticity is honesty, but we have to remove something from our honesty and we have to add something to it in order for it to really be authenticity. The thing we have to remove is our self-righteousness. And the thing we have to add, which we’ve already talked a bit about is vulnerability.

So it’s honesty minus self-righteousness plus vulnerability. And self-righteousness is really that sense of I’m right, you’re wrong. And again, it usually doesn’t show up in a super negative critical, we’re not pointing fingers and screaming at people and banging on tables. It actually ironically shows up more passive aggressively with us acting nice or acting accommodating when we really have lots of very strong opinions that we say, okay, great, no problem. Or, you want some time off? Okay, that’s not a problem when really you’re, how could you not come to work or what’s going on? And that’s what gets us into trouble is again, trying to be so nice, but not actually telling the truth.

Stephanie: And I definitely have fallen into that trap before of just, it’s okay, it’s okay, but the resentment for me is building, and then I can see where that would come across as clearly she’s not okay, but she’s saying things, you know?

Mike: Right. And again, it’s hard. I mean, someone shows a blade or they needed to, my kid got sick or this happened. You want to be accommodating. You don’t want to be, but then you’re, okay, look, I don’t know what to do. I had a conversation. Actually, I was at a different conference last week in Phoenix and this guy came up to me after and he goes, man, I try to be super accommodating and super compassionate and super understanding. And he’s, and there’s a woman on our team who literally there’s a problem all the time. One of her kids or this is happening and he goes, and I know she’s a single mom and he goes, and I feel such a jerk, but I don’t know what to do. Cause at some point her performance is suffering and sometimes she’s great. And he’s, and it’s super tricky. And I feel I’m always walking on eggshells. What do I do? And the first thing I said to him, I don’t know, man, that’s hard. That is a hard, that’s a hard situation and there’s no hard and fast thing. And I was, the truth is, it’s probably a series of sweaty palm conversations and separate from the circumstance. This goes back to something you and I were talking about earlier. Once we know a lot of things about people’s lives and it’s, we know they’ve got kids here and they’ve got an ex there and they’ve got parents who were, and now it’s, I want to be an empathetic person. And at the end of the day, yes, we can be empathetic humans and we’re also running businesses. And especially, you know, that Stephanie, as a business owner, unless you’re bleeding, you’re going to show up and be there. It’s your business. There’s no I don’t feel it. It’s, again, it’s when the baby, you my wife, Michelle and I have two daughters who are now 19 and 16, but when the baby cried in the middle of the night, when we had little ones, it did not matter that we were exhausted and didn’t feel getting up to whatever, or the baby needed something. It’s, you got to, that’s how our businesses are. And our employees, even the best employees, they’re not going to have that same level of ownership. But we’ve got to set up an environment as such where they understand that there’s accountability and there’s expectations. And yes, we’re accommodating and understanding and things happen and sometimes your car breaks down or you get a flat tire or one of your kids is sick. And of course there’s going to be exceptions, but there also has to be a standard by which we operate. And we got to be able to talk about that, you know?

Managing a Female-Dominated Workforce

Stephanie: Yeah, yeah, and I’m so glad you brought that example up because over-archingly, this is a women-led industry, meaning both the owner, I would say a disproportionate amount of this industry is owned and ran by women, and also the cleaning techs are majority women. And so when I look at my staff, I have over 95% of my staff are women, and additionally, almost all of them are mothers. And so exactly what you’re describing is the plight of all of the owners listening right now is we are hiring mothers and we want to get, I’m not a mother, but you know, a lot of owners are. And so they’re, I want to give an opportunity to people who cannot work a traditional job sometimes and need that flexibility and need that empathy because it is so hard to be as reliable, especially if you’re the primary parent. And it’s honestly for us, if somebody calls in a couple of times a month, that is basically zero to us. That, that, we’ve just established that is normal, especially if they’re moms, twice a month, if they’re full time, literally. And we’ve just kind of been okay with that. And otherwise I think it would make me pull my hair out and chase my tail.

Mike: Right. Well, Logan, that goes back to you knowing your team and knowing the industry and knowing what’s normal and what your will, back to when we were talking about even with turnover, it’s, okay, there are going to be people are going to come in and out. That’s part of it. It’s a high turnover business. What can we do to mitigate? There’s going to be a lot of things that come up just given the nature of the people we hire and we’re going to be okay with that. But also again, someone doing it once or twice a month is one thing versus someone doing it 10 or 15 times a month. And then there’s at some point you go, hold on. We’re super accommodating and that doesn’t work. So again, and everyone, everybody who’s listening or watching can relate to, you’ve got to map that onto your own personality expectation team situation. If it’s just you and one other person or two other people, someone saying, I can’t be there is a much bigger deal than if we don’t have someone to cover. Do you know I mean?

I say, mistakes are mistakes. We want to create an environment where people can make mistakes without shame or judgment. But let’s be clear, some mistakes are bigger than others. If I make a mistake or something happens, oops, sorry. If I make a mistake in someone’s home and we break something very expensive, that’s a different mistake than if we just broke the broom and we got to replace that. You know I mean? And I think most adults understand the difference between a really big costly mistake and one that’s less significant. You know, and we can be compassionate at the same time also hold healthy high standards.

Handling Customer Complaints and Building Trust

Stephanie: Yeah, it really is a balance. And I love talking about making mistakes and bringing it back to sharing our own mistakes. But I’ve definitely found paradoxically is once we’re very clear that we understand that this happens, it’s it seems to raise the bar because everybody feels less pressure. So I’m very proud right now, we’re hitting 1,400 appointments with zero complaints. And so that’s crazy, I’m super proud of that. So over two months of appointments without that.

And something when it comes to complaints that I’ve found kind of bringing it back to who we’re talking to, I find that our customers will always blame the cleaners first if something goes that’s very much I don’t want to stereotype, but that’s literally the experience of if something goes awry at the house, blame the cleaners, right? And so often times, techs providing that negative feedback or say, I guess our process is we get a complaint and we’re trying to gather the details as opposed to making assumptions because at the end of the day, we are trying to please our clients, right? But also balancing the needs of the clients with respect and trust of the cleaners when we don’t know what the actual case is. Cause we got two stories here. Do you have any suggestions for balancing this very delicate situation?

Mike: Well, I mean, as you’re saying, and I’m just thinking, you know, our teenage daughters over the years, when they’d lose something, even when they were younger, they would blame it on the cleaners. And my wife and I would, Michelle and I would both be, okay, hold on. It is possible that something got moved around, but let’s not start there. And 99 times out of a hundred, it was the girls losing something or breaking something or whatever. So that said, I mean, just with that, I do think that again, you and everybody listening to us knows better than me in terms of the lived experience of this, how you handle that. Look, in general, when you get a complaint of any kind, even if you know on the surface, this is probably ridiculous and there’s no way, it’s helpful to not be defensive, right, from the jump, to just listen with some empathy, with some compassion, I’m so sorry that that happened, right? And then figure out what can be done, if anything, to try to figure out what did happen.

And look, nobody being accused of or blamed for something that they didn’t do in life in general. But especially in your industry, that would make sense that that would happen on a pretty consistent basis when those complaints come up. And then just trying to respond as clearly and quickly and compassionately as you can, try to get to the bottom of what’s going on. I would imagine many of those things get resolved on their own. And then sometimes they get pretty gnarly if something has gone a little sideways or you have a customer who’s just not happy in general and you you might end up getting some blowback from them, even if it wasn’t anything that was done by any of the cleaners, but there’s weird stuff going on in their, in their situation, then they’re just going to offload it onto you. Yeah.

Stephanie: Yeah. I will anecdotically say one of my favorite ones is our cleaner’s accidentally turned all the breakers off in a house one time. And then the client thought that that meant they were scoping out the house to steal the jet skis. They were convinced we were trying to steal their jet skis. It’s, we don’t want your jet skis, Jeff. We promise. So yeah.

Mike: Yeah. Right. But you know, look, I mean, the thing is, you know, this, I mean, people, people get weird, right? That’s the other thing to remember is that people get weird and that’s not an excuse for people to treat other people poorly. But I do think, look, there was another thing, and I don’t know if I wrote it and we’re all in this together or not, but it’s a, it’s a saying that I’ve used a lot of a mentor of mine said to me, Mike, you know, there’s two things you could do in life that if you did these two things, it would dramatically improve the quality of your life. And he said, they’re simple on the service, but they’re just not that easy. He said, the first thing is be easy to impress. And the second thing is be hard to offend. He said, most of us have it the other way around. It’s really hard to impress us and we get offended that. He said, but if you could be the kind of person that wakes up in the morning and says, I’m going to be genuinely impressed with and in awe of life of humans, of beauty, of technology, of just, wow, well, a child is, whoa.

He’s, then you’re going to be amazed all the time because there are amazing people and things happening all over. I mean, think about this, just Stephanie, even you and I talking to each other right now, recording this, it’s mind blowing. I mean, again, I’m old enough to remember, my dad was, my dad’s been gone for a long time. My dad was in radio and I sometimes think about my own podcast or just in general. If I could, my dad came back and I explained to him, dad, I have a radio show, but it’s not really a radio show. Actually it’s on video too. And I can talk to people around the world. And then it would, his brain would explode. But so easy to impress. And then the other thing is the hard to offend. I mean, again, and I’m not, there are things that happen in life that are genuinely offensive and there’s things that go down that we shouldn’t just blow off or, however, I would say the majority of the time, most of us get offended or upset or take things personally. It’s usually not personal to us. And in the case again, of an upset customer, you want to absolutely take it seriously. You want to listen, but the guy who thinks you’re going to steal his jet skis, that’s kind of crazy, right? But at the same time, it’s, if you can somehow not get super offended by that and not get super defensive about that and not, right? And just, okay, okay, and do what needs to be done. And just, wow, okay, Jeff’s really stressed about his jet skis, that’s okay. And maybe it’s a point where you realize, I don’t actually, we don’t want that customer anymore. And this is a bummer that it played out that way, but sometimes we find that out the hard way, right? Or sometimes you also find out that one of your cleaners did do something weird and they weren’t owning up to it. And it was an unfortunate, really messy situation to realize, wow, that person’s not actually the right fit for the team. That sucks. Good thing we found out. And you know what I mean? So again, I think if, if we can think of it that way and most criticisms, most complaints are opportunities for growth. If we choose to look at them that way.

Creating a Culture of Appreciation

Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And thinking on that whole, you know, easy to impress and hard to offend. Obviously it all comes from the top and us behaving in that way. Do you have any very specific way? I’m, how can I, how can I create this mindset in my staff? Because I feel I, I’m very easy to impress and I love just one, one phrase that I hate is, you know, people shouldn’t get accolades for just showing up and doing their job because I feel that especially a lot of my staff come from the healthcare industry. That seems to be a big pipeline for us of they’ve been very underappreciated. They’ve been run ragged. They’re used to gross stuff. So it’s a great avenue for us for great workers. And they just never felt what they did was enough or, cause their job is hard. And so I guess, do you feel the same that it’s the whole pat on the back and just that appreciation, how frequent is too frequent? Is there an upper level?

Mike: It’s really hard to over appreciate people if we do it genuinely. I mean, I think we can inauthentically over recognize people, but in terms of appreciation, I mean, my comment on this often is, you I’ve been studying appreciation for the whole 25 years I’ve been doing this. I’ve never heard anyone say to me in any context, you know what Mike, I’m just too appreciated. It’s too much. No, I wish my boss and my coworkers and my friends and my spouse and my kids would just stop appreciating me. It’s getting on my nerves, no.

So I think if we do it genuinely, we can’t really overdo it. I do think there’s, look, we don’t necessarily, look, there does sometimes, if you show up long enough at any job, you will get some recognition, hey, you’ve been here a year, you’ve been here five years. So we do get some recognition just for showing up. But I think there’s a way in which, what I think what you’re speaking to Stephanie is can we value people and thank them for coming and thank them for being there? Absolutely. And I don’t think we’re overdoing it if it comes from a genuine place and so, you know, and, in terms of influencing your staff or wanting people to operate in a certain way, there’s really only two ways to influence people that I’m aware of. One is that we can model the behavior that we want, right? It’s what Gandhi taught us all be the change, right? So it’s, you want people to be more kind or more responsible or more communicative or, more, you know, patient, whatever, fill in the blank. Start by being that yourself, especially as a leader or an owner.

The second thing that you can do, and we’ve been talking about it throughout our conversation, is give people feedback, but not feedback, should be this way. Because as I was talking earlier about self-righteousness, the natural human response to self-righteousness is defensiveness.

Stephanie: I wrote that down. That was when I wrote down, was, that’s great.

Mike: Yeah. And again, sometimes we do it with really good intention. We want someone to be better. We want someone to be whatever, but we’re doing it in this kind of, even if we’re saying it really nicely, we’re basically saying you’re doing it wrong. I’m doing it right. Be more me. And that usually elicits that defensiveness from the other person. So giving someone feedback is offering them potentially some advice or a different way to do something, but it’s doing it from the place of a certain place of humility that basically says, look, try this on or consider this, or here’s another way to think about it. I’m not saying it’s right with a capital R or that I know the truth with a capital T. I’m just saying, here’s my perspective and I want to offer this to you. Or another way to think about feedback is if someone’s doing something negative that we don’t want, instead of calling them out or admonishing them, letting them know what’s the impact of the negative behavior on us because that gives them a sense of, wow. Again, I mean, the classic situation where someone’s late, we could not say anything and be mad. We could lecture them and tell them how wrong it is and bad, blah, blah, blah. Or we can let them know, here’s the impact when that happens. It creates stress for me. It creates stress for the team. We’re scrambling around. Do we have to find a replacement? Right? And if they can get the impact of it, it’s not going to magically change their behavior but they’re going to have more awareness of I don’t want to have that negative impact on these other people that I work with or care about. So I’ll think twice about how I organize my life so that I can hopefully show up on time more often than not, you know?

Using Impact to Give Effective Feedback

Stephanie: Yeah, so just kind of focusing on, well, one being very, I guess, yeah, candid with how they’re affecting us. But yeah, I love that. I think that that would be very helpful, especially considering, I said, feedback, especially it’s very often, you know, quality related for our industry, hey, you you miss this, you miss this. And one of the practical ways that we help I guess, establish that kind of safety to get feedback is everybody is to check everybody. So if somebody is at a job site with somebody else, you both check each other’s work. Whether that’s a newbie, they just started, or you’ve been here for five years, or you’re cleaning with me, we’re going to check each other’s work.

Mike: Right. Yeah. And that’s a good way to establish it. You another thing to think about feedback, just an example, interpersonally, let’s just say we’re talking or we’ve known each other, we’re friends, we work together. And you notice, which is true for me, that I sometimes interrupt you or other people, right? You could then lecture me about it and go, you know, that’s rude and you shouldn’t interrupt people. You would be correct in my judgment. However, if you said to me, you know, Mike, when you interrupt me or when you just interrupted me or when we were in that meeting yesterday, you interrupt, I got flustered and then I lost my train of thought and I forgot what I was going to say. I wanted to say something really important that we were talking about and it just went away. Now, again, in that moment, what it’s going to do is stop me and go, first I’m going to go, God, right. I’m probably going to say, I’m so sorry, I didn’t mean to do whatever, but it’s giving me a sense of my impact on you in that sense as opposed to you lecturing me in some morally superior way that I should communicate differently than I do and more you and more whatever the hell. You know what I mean? We all do this in life. We do this in our personal relationships all the time. We’re constantly judging each other and trying to impose our morals and our values and our priorities onto our partners or our friends or our family, which again, doesn’t make us evil, but it doesn’t usually motivate, you know what, my friend just told me how wrong I was, I’m going to change, or my spouse just told me, no, it’s usually when we can vulnerably let someone know, here’s the impact of that. Similarly, on the flip side, positively, the best way we can really let someone know something that we appreciate and value about them is let them know what they’ve done and the positive impact it’s had on us. Because then it’s, you just gave someone this great gift where then they realize, wow, I did this thing and it had real value to that person and it had a positive impact. They also can’t argue because most of us aren’t very good at taking compliments or appreciation. If someone says, you look nice or you’re smart or you’re funny, you’re, no, I’m actually an idiot. But if you say when you said that thing, it really sparked a bunch of good ideas for me. Or when you reminded me of that, really motivated me to do something different. I’m so grateful for your, whatever. It cuts through the other person’s little sort of gremlin in their mind and actually has them get the impact that they’re having.

The ROI of Company Culture

Stephanie: I love that. Just to kind of wrap up, if we do have any very, let’s say, analytical minded folks listening and they’re all this has been an hour of touchy-feeliness. Why should I, why would I do this? So can we talk about ROI a little bit of all of this behavior and what does that do from a bottom line retention standpoint?

Mike: Well, look, there was a study done recently by Glassdoor, which looks at people who leave work working places. And it was, I think it was 81% of people said they would have stayed longer with their company or with their team if they felt more valued and appreciated. And only 37% of people in that same survey said, I’m motivated to work harder when my boss is hard on me. So call it what you want, touchy feely and all of it. And for years, you know, Stephanie, people have been saying, this is all nice, but it’s soft skills. And I always say, yeah, soft skills are hard. Dealing with humans is hard. And so again, if you want to be the best performing team that you can, you really want to develop these skills, not only in yourself, but your team. And I come, we didn’t really even talk about my background. I come from the world of sports. I played baseball all growing up and in college and then professionally. And it was, I took all of this stuff away and we weren’t talking about any of that stuff back in the eighties and nineties when I was doing this, but so much of the best coaches and the best teams I was on, we all really cared about each other, valued each other, had each other’s backs. And it wasn’t just a warm, fuzzy, touchy, feely, make us feel good thing. It translated to how we performed on the field. And I always performed better when I was on a team that had good chemistry where we actually cared about each other when versus one that I wasn’t. And I didn’t totally understand it in those days and now 25 years later of doing this work and researching and writing about this, this stuff really matters. You’ve got to do it in your own authentic way. It’s got to be real for you, but doing it in that way has a huge impact on you and everybody around you.

Stephanie: Yeah, absolutely. And you called it kind of, I remember you saw it in especially sports, was it a rock star team versus a team of rock stars or however you phrased it. That it’s a total different thing just when it comes to how the performance actually is.

Mike: Exactly. Yeah. I mean, and that being a team of champions is great, but being a championship team is what we all want. And that’s where everybody makes each other better.

Stephanie: Absolutely. Well, Mike, this has been amazing. I’m so grateful to have this conversation with you. It’s been really enlightening and I hope for our listeners educational and something that they can take away and start applying today in their business and kind of right the ship if culture has been a little off for them. So obviously, you know, I’ve mentioned several of your books. Where can our listeners find out more of you?

Mike: You know, you can find me on all the socials, but best place to find out about me and my work is at our website, which is mike-robbins.com.

Stephanie: Well, we will definitely link all of that in our bio below. And yeah, again, thanks Mike. And thank you to our listeners. Of course guys, hit that like, hit that subscribe. Write a nice comment for Mike. Give him some appreciation perhaps. And we’ll see you on the next episode of Filthy Rich Cleaners.

Note: This transcript has been edited for clarity and readability.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode

• “We’re All in This Together” by Mike Robbins
• “Focus on the Good Stuff” by Mike Robbins
• Adam Grant’s work on feedback and performance
• Ted Lasso
• Glassdoor workplace studies
• ZenMaid
• Mike Robbins’ website
• Mike Robbins on LinkedIn
• Mike Robbins on Twitter/X
• Mike Robbins on Instagram
• Wharton Business School

QUICK TIP FROM THE AUTHOR

Simplify and enjoy your scheduling with a scheduling software made for maid services

• Have a beautiful calendar that's full but never stressful.
• Make your cleaners happy and provide all the information they need at their fingertips.
• Convert more website visitors into leads and get new cleanings in your inbox with high-converting booking forms.
• Become part of a community of 8000+ cheering maid service owners just like you.

Start your FREE ZenMaid trial today and discover the freedom and clarity that ZenMaid can bring to your maid service! Start your FREE trial today